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offshore programming

Local programmer and database designer

It is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE that web programming is all being offshored.

It is true, however, that if programming is your only skill you have more
of a problem than you used to.

If you've got the social skills to make your clients or employer feel
comfortable, you're 9/10 of the way there. If you are good at sales, you
can sell your service to web developers or potential employers. (I'm
lousy at the sales part, that's why I'm better with an employer than as
freelance.)

Personally, I find that if you do a full-service job where web programming
is part of it, and you also do stuff like design and documentation, you're
less likely to be offshored. Anything where it is critical that the
person have an understanding of (a) English, (b) American culture and
business practices, (c) specifically that organization's culture and
business, is less and less likely to be offshored as you move from (a)
through (c).

Small web developers and small business virtually never offshore. I still
get asked to do back-end database design and programming work for small
sites and there is going to be an ongoing need for this. If you have the
persistence to start with doing back-end programming for a couple of web
developers, and then wait for their next projects, you will eventually be
able to make a VERY comfortable living out of being a programming
subcontractor for existing web designers who don't want to do the
programming end of the work. But doing that freelance takes time,
patience, and a source of income while you develop that business.

In my particular case, web programming skills have made it possible for me
to develop solutions that work for us better than the out-of-the-box web
applications we buy. So even though I do virtually no web programming for
production systems here, I have been able to tweak the purchased packages
-- which I wouldn't have been able to do without basic programming skills.
Bear in mind, for this job, I had to be a librarian in the first place,
with web skills on top of that.

I think for most computer-related jobs this has been a long-term trend:
companies want expertise in their business. I got hired to do web
programming for a financial website because I had already done web
programming for another financial website.

If you have existing expertise in a field (healthcare, finance) maximize
that in your resume and target web development jobs in that field.

BE FLEXIBLE. I had so much fun doing web programming all day. I got laid
off. I got a different job and now I don't do web programming all day,
but I do get to have last say on all the web design, programming, and
overall information architecture.

Best of luck to all!

Employee of a major insurance company

I had you in a class several semesters ago. I hope life is finding you well and happy. I work in the IT department doing development and maintenance for our public facing, customer facing and employee facing websites. We work with quite a bit of IBM technology and have recently signed agreements to have IBM maintain our infrastructure and do development and maintenance work for our applications. IBM has facilities off shore and would assign the work to the off shore facilities in India. As a result of this, IT is being restructured and many of us have had to re-apply for new job roles. The new roles would be leadership roles as either analysts or designers. Our jobs would then be analysing the business problem, architecting solutions, building use case scenarios, and then working with an off shore team to supervise, review code, etc through the development and deployment of the product being built.

Our two main technologies we use to develop is the J2EE platform and Microsoft's dot net. From my observations, those that were retained had deep skills in atleast one or two of these competencies, and a good working knowledge of many other web technologies: CSS, javascript, html. The softer skills that I see as common though is the ability to communicate, understanding of business needs and business urgency, and how to set priority. Our jobs now will be THE link between business needs and technical solutions, so all the technical skills are for not if we cannot understand, communicate and prioritize.

We found out about our jobs last Thursday and Friday. We were either promoted into the new roles or told that we would have a termination date in the near future. I am relieved to find out that I am being promoted into the product designer role, but it is not something I can feel too good about. Personally, I do not like to see American jobs go overseas and do not like what it does to the morale of a company and the community of workers it affects at large.

Owner of a Web Development firm

My biggest programmer needs are for eCommerce sites and dynamic content
management. PHP and mySQL are the skills I require the most and what I see
being requested the most on all of the forums I belong to. Other valuable
programming skills I suggest would be Java and C/C++.

I prefer to hire American programmers for 2 purely business reasons: I want
the Deliverables and Source Code Notes to be in clear, easy to understand
English and I want to be able to call my programmers and not pay huge
overseas phone bills.

There is a website called "RentACoder.com" where you can post your skills
and also hire others to help you with projects and I have seen a lot of bids
from Ukrainians and Indians that have been 1/5 to 1/10 the price of American
bids, but I've also seen a lot of American companies hiring American
programmers in spite of those low bids.

In my opinion, the most valuable skill that programmers should work on is
marketing and writing. If you can present yourself in an intelligent manner
and explain what you are doing clearly, then I am far more likely to hire
you than someone who says, "Hi! I reviewed your project description. It's
very easy for me. I can done it in PHP maximum for a 5 days. I hope to be
hearing from you soon! Best Regards." (Real bid I received!)

I hope that helps!

Programmer emplyed full time at a local Web Development firm

What are the programming needs of the Web sites you have worked on?
Our programming needs are for all aspects of Adobe PDF form programming, connecting Flash presentations to information in a database, membership directories, discussion forums, e-commerce, event calendars, web portals.

Are these needs being handled in-house or off shore?
All are being handled in-house.

What skills (technical and people) do programmers need to succeed in Web Development? First and foremost they need to have good database skills. This does not mean Access, this means MySQL, SQL Server, DB2 or Oracle. MySQL is a good first choice because it is free, easy to download, works on most operating systems, is very stable, and now has some very good programming tools. 

Next, you need to have skills in more than one programming language. One size does not fit all. A good choice for scripting is PHP for some of the same reasons as MySQL. Use of PHP is growing and is becoming more popular at many Universities. University jobs are usually very good to have. Java would be a good choice for the full featured language. Many of the tools are free and it is also popular at Universities.

Another good option for programming skill sets is Microsoft.NET. Like them or not, you really cannot deny the fact that Microsoft's programming tools are very good and they offer a lot of free support to developers that use their tools. Their main programming tool, Visual Studio.NET, is not free but you can get a student copy for around $100. You can also look on e-Bay and find people selling their extra copies for around $300 for the Enterprise Architect version which normally sells for $2000. .NET is a huge step forward in the Microsoft programming framework. The XML support in .NET is awesome.

XML, XML, XML and Web Services. Data exchange and configuration files in XML is where it is at right now. The extra effort to master XML is well worth it the first time you need to transfer data files between different servers and databases and troubleshoot problems with the data file. 

You also need to know enough JavaScript to do the basics like form validation.

You should also learn some web design and CSS. You will be called on to do some layout and structuring of your forms and database results and you should be able to do a presentable job.

Another very valuable skill is to know Flash well enough to do the database interfaces and Action Scripting.

Do not under estimate people skills. In web development, the odds are that you will end up doing some customer service whether work for someone else or are a free-lancer.. If you have an abrasive, arrogant demeanor, you will have a hard time getting that job and keeping the clients. Nobody wants put up with a jerk. The "just let me do my job and code" attitude does not cut it anymore. You will need to learn to play nice with others.

Any additional comments:Get the new edition of Code Complete. It will teach you more about how to be a good programmer than all the courses you have taken.

NEVER stop learning, build that skill set. The best way to keep from getting left behind is to stay in front. Pay attention to the trends, ignore media hype, and get those skills. They can't outsource your ability and knowledge. The better you are, the better your chances in the job market. The opportunities are still there, not many entry level ones, for proven experience. Bite the bullet, take internships and build that resume/portfolio. If you have the design skills of most programmers, hook up with a good designer. Bad design will distract from your programming skills. Do what you need to do to get that proven experience.

What are the programming needs of the Web sites you have worked on?
Perl, MySQL, PHP, javascript

Are these needs being handled in-house or off shore
We use local (bay area) free-lancers.

What skills (technical and people) do programmers need to succeed in Web Development An even balance of technical skills in the technologies mentioned above, social/communication skills (something sorely lacking in many programmers), and business skills (the ability to accurately estimate their costs and deliver a project on time). It should additionally be pointed out that the easiest advantage that a local programmer could have over a foreign one is the social/communication skills, not the technical ones.

Any additional commentsI've talked with a lot of people and I think "offshoring" has peaked and is on it's way down in popularity. Most companies that crow in public about the fact that they offshore, grumble in private about all the problems it causes. These problems include:
Communications problems due to cultural differences
Communications problems due to time differences
Difficulty enforcing contracts overseas
I'm not saying that there are not advantages in hiring overseas programmers, I'm just saying that there is definitely a downside too. Bottom line is that business is based on relationships. If I have a tested relationship with a local programmer who I can meet face-to-face when needed, who I know will stand behind his work when a bug is found a year later, and I can make money after marking his rates up, there is absolutely no reason why I would consider trying someone else anywhere much less over-seas.

Student who is programming as he goes through school

Off-shoring? Don't make me laugh. A few companies did it, and it's making big waves in the web world...big like a pebble in the ocean.

I do programming all the time. *All* I do is PHP/MySQL and I can't find enough time in the day for the number of jobs I have the opportunity for. In addition, I see the market growing as well. This whole "woe is me you damn Indians" thing is a complete fallacy.

"What are the programming needs of the Web sites you have worked on?"
C.M.S. - Content Management System(s)
These are big, big, big! Most medium sized businesses need an updateable website, but don't want to hire on a full time whiz kid for web development. Thus, they contract out for a dynamic website that will be easy to update and extend in the future. Pick a favorite tool for making dynamic websites (mine is WordPress) and learn it really well. Well enough to morph it to different clients and purposes. This will go a long way. (Almost every single one of my jobs has needed this.)

"What skills (technical and people) do programmers need to succeed in Web Development"
First and foremost, if you want to be a programmer, don't think of programming as "I can code in C++" or "I can code in PHP". It is far more important to think in terms of "I understand the logic of programming". Languages change, systems change, upgrades happen - but if you concentrate on the logic of the process, learning new languages will not make you loose all your hair.

Secondly, learn to teach. A signifigant portion of what I do is programming - the other part is teaching people how to use what I just made them. Not only is this a good skill to have to teach you to not "talk down" to people, but it will also make you a highly valued member of the staff and people will reccomend you more readily.

President of Music Company that sells it product on the Web

My feeling is that there needs to be a combination of teaching the web development skills as well as small business skills so people don't think the only way to bring in income is through a traditional job for a large corporation. Those jobs ARE offshore for the most part. However, since our country is really run by small businesses and technology is required for just about every type of business these days as well as web presence and e-commerce solutions, these students need to think about becoming independent contractors and learn some business skills as well. I believe there will be unlimited demand for developers and the supply needs to be there with independent, organized, good communicators. The wages are going to be lower than in the past however, due to the offshore competition. If a local developer insists on getting wages based on late 90's then small businesses will have no choice but to offshore as well. We all want to support our local economy so developers need to start thinking from the business perspective and they'll have unlimited work available to them if they price themselves for hire at more reasonable rates.

What are the programming needs of the Web sites you have worked on?
We have needed programmers who can help create custom
applications that truly serve business needs. We have needed programmers to
customize and integrate with existing applications while creating more
user-friendly processes. Report creation is huge for small business needs.
Programmers must have SQL expertise and various languages. Creating exports
from one proprietary application database to another is very common in small
businesses. The knowledge and experience in various browsers in an ongoing
requirement for any language in web development.

Are these needs being handled in-house or off shore
We have NOT hired any developers off-shore but we have been
tempted so a couple of times to get the job done affordably or done at all. I
have found an attitude problem with local developers and unrealistic
expectations of their hourly worth or project basis charges in comparison to
the economy and weighing all the costs of doing business.

What skills (technical and people) do programmers need to succeed in Web Development
Programmers must have good verbal and email communications
skills and work well in a team environment. If they're great at programming but
can't communicate well enough to understand the needs of their client and the
'big picture' for the business there will only be wasted work and code that's
not serving the business needs long-term. They must know how to integrate with
web designers and accommodate the content requirements as well. They must be
able to create prototypes and verify they're on the right track often. There is
no place for programmers who think they know it all and make lots of
assumptions. It's disaster for a company to have a narrow-minded
tunnel-visioned programmer. Programmers need to take the time to really
understand the system(s) requested before creating one line of code which means
they need more business knowledge to be effective.

Local Programmer

What are the programming needs of the Web sites you have worked on?
[I work on database driven e-commerce sites coded in ASP using VBScript and
Jscript. The sites that I am working on have 8-10 million hits per month
and have been developed by a combination of US and Indonesian workers.
Approximately 90% of the work has been done by me or other US programmers.]

Are these needs being handled in-house or off shore
[Both...see above]

What skills (technical and people) do programmers need to succeed in
Web Development
[A solid knowledge of HTML, CSS, JavaScript, along with a programming
language or 2 (or more). Just knowing HTML, JS, CSS does not really cut it.
Today's sites need to be dynamic. They need to change and evolve almost
daily, and simply customizing through the use of cookies won't cut it
anymore. Knowledge of a programming language such as ASP, ASP.NET, JSP,
PHP, JAVA, along with database query writing using SQL (including SQL Server
and/or mySQL) is essential to a programmer's success.]

Any additional comments
[FYI -- My skills include ASP (VBScript and Jscript), ASP.NET, SQL Server
2000, PHP, mySQL, and C#. I also have a strong working knowledge of IIS 5.0
and 6.0, Windows 2000/2003 Server, and how servers need to be set up in
order to run efficiently.]

Owner of local Web Development firm

What are the programming needs of the Web sites you have worked on?
SQL database programming Shopping cart ColdFusion

Are these needs being handled in-house or off shoreIn-house

What skills (technical and people) do programmers need to succeed in Web Development Beyond html and graphic design: JavaScript, CSS, SQL database

Project Manager from local Web Design firm

Needs: - HTML, Javascript, CSS, and ASP

In-house only (we do not accept telecommuters or off-shore assistance)

Skills: able to adapt (they should think on their feet with a problem solving approach to each project) work on a team (helping others to understand their abilities and needs in order to make the project a success)

Because programmers have to interface with others on a project, they must have good team communications skills. Team communication is challenging for people who are not located in the same building, and the problems increase when you add in someone who does not have English as their first language. It would not be cost effective to export those jobs.

Local Web Producer

I am not a programmer on the level you are discussing but I come across them frequently for jobbing out parts of projects as well as through my association at NBMA and other organizations.

What one tech head hunter said several months back is that there a trend now for American companies to not job out so much of the web design/programming offshore.

The reason was that much of the work, although cheaper, was unsatisfactory. I do not know how wide spread this is or if the trend has continued.

I believe part of the problem was in communications where it mattered. (Where it may not matter to them as much is the communications with the customer.)

I know more about the work of independent contractors, which is not the bulk of the work people are looking for; they want to be employed by a company.

Also, many companies, I have heard time and time again, are, rather than hiring two people to accomplish an 80 hour work week, they have one person they have working all the time: nights, weekends, etc. It is simply cheaper for them.

People are staying at these jobs (this is not just in the tech industry) because they know or perceive they do not have as many options.

What I see in the independent contracting community is becoming a jack or jane of all trades. (Many folks who have been and wanted to stay as an employee have now become independent in order to survive.)

We simply need to have skills way out there from what we thought we would need. When we don't, we say we do and then job out to someone who does.

This is a better solution then trying to be great in all aspects.

Although there are plenty that think they are both, it just ain't possible to be a high level designer and a high level programmer (or very unlikely, except for a few exceptional folks).

The smaller businesses are not going to go offshore with the same frequency as the larger ones. These smaller businesses will also want a lot of service, which is to our advantage since they will want to stay not only in the States, but locally.

No, the "salaries" will not be equivalent to working for a major corporation, but depending on the person's personality, can be a better life (at least, that is how I view it).

I think to get a better idea if this is true or what exactly IS true, is to contact some tech placement companies and/or the HR people from some of the large corporations.

Often what we perceive is not the actual case. The JC needs to know what the "trends" are to counsel the students in a realistic way now.

Local Media Firm

What  are the programming needs of the Web sites you have worked on?
We develop Cold Fusion and Flash applications routinely, run a search appliance, and code features in a proprietary content management system.

Are these needs being handled in-house or off shore
We handle our programming needs in various ways:
We develop some applications in-house

• We outsource to U.S. consultants who develop applications according to our specifications for implementation on our server network (e.g., they build a Cold Fusion database we then install, run and maintain ourselves)

• We use third-party vendors who host portions of our site on an ASP model. Those vendors do use offshore production staff to keep their costs to us low.

What skills (technical and people) do programmers need to succeed in Web Development
As I see it, there will always be a need for in-house people who combine technical skills with analytical and communication skills. Our most urgent need is not just for someone who can code the database, but someone who can scope it out, organize the project and execute it independently.

Obviously, huge projects need dedicated project managers and that’s a valid separate role. But even a straightforward application at our company can require knowledge of our Web audience, how other departments we serve function, and how said project fits into our strategy for the year – which requires some insight beyond technical skills.

If the programmer isn’t bringing bigger-picture analysis to the table along with technical knowledge, and if he/she can’t communicate about the task with other key parties, then I’m going to have to step in and manage the project anyway … in which case it’s easy to replace that pure technical coding ability with someone cheaper.